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Episode 3 : "What If?" feat. Rivers Solomon

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Episode 3: "What If?" feat. Rivers Solomon

What if we could imagine an accessible world? In this episode, Rivers Solomon, author of an Unkindness of Ghosts, discusses what an accessible future could look like.
Rivers Solomon is a dyke, a Trekkie, a wannabe cyborg queen, a trash princex, a communist, a butch, a femme, a feminist, a she-beast, a rootworker, a mother, a daughter, a diabetic, and a refugee of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade. Rivers' debut novel, AN UNKINDNESS OF GHOSTS—pitched as "a science fiction meditation on trans-generational trauma, race, and identity". It has been described as "a breathtaking science fiction debut from a worthy successor to Octavia Butler."

[Transcript is available below the audio.]

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Rivers Solomon Transcript


B : Tell the people about yourself.

K : My name is Rivers Solomon. I’m a writer. I just had a book, An Unkindness of Ghosts, that came out on Oct 3rd, which is science fiction. I’m originally from the United States, I’m currently living in the UK…… that's a basic introduction.

B : Get this: Rivers describe themselves as a “ dyke, a Trekkie, a wannabe cyborg queen, a trash princex, a communist, a butch, a femme, a feminist, a she-beast, a rootworker, a mother, a daughter, a diabetic, and a refugee of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.”

B : I resonate with the ways that you identify. I also identify as a prince, and I really do feel like my disabilities have made me more powerful than when I was able-bodied.

R :  Absolutely, especially in the last two years, disability has become the one of the main lenses that I view the world through, in terms of access. It's become such an important part of my writing and how I see the world. I think it makes my writing better for it, and my writing is everything to me.

B : So I’ve been hearing a lot about your new book! I’d love to check it out!  Also. I’m a little bit of a nerd, I used to work at this bookstore that had a lot of radical feminist books, and a fair trade cafe, it was an activist center too you know? And they carried Akashic Books!

R : I love Akashic so much, because first of all they took a chance on my book. So I love what they do, so much of their work is prioritizing marginalized voices. And, I think that that’s what publishing needs, more presses that are, It has been so great to work with.

B : You’ve been compared to Octavia Butler, which makes me want to read your book even more! What inspires you to write?

R : I’ve been writing pretty much all my life. I’ve always been the kid with my head in the clouds, I loved stories in every form that they come in that was books, on TV, and movies. Even from first and second grade, I would have these elaborate fan fics in my head that would blend whatever sort of media that I was taking in at that point in my life, and I think stories are they bring our lives meaning, they entertain us, they save us sometimes, I think actually, like Octavia Butler, and with many fiction writers, our world it’s fine and good, but maybe it’s not.

Both : It’s not, It’s not. (laughs)

R : So why write about that world necessarily, when I could imagine a new one? There’s a lot about that stuff that is in my created world but I have the power. Things can resolve, there can be resolution in 350 pages, which there can not be with our own struggles in life and so yeah!

B : Wow! That was really beautiful!

R : Thank you! You can’t see me but I’m taking a little bow.

B : Yes take your bow! Ok. I would love to hear more about your writing process and how you view disability is an afrofuturistic sense?

R : Oh that’s a good question. As far as the process itself A lot of writing look like not writing. It’s allowing myself to rest and  breathe. That’s been really important, I got in this really big guilt spiral shortly after finishing my first novel because I wasn't producing and making. And I felt so wrung out and feeling useless because I wasn't making as much as I wanted to make. Even though we think of art as this creative thing, it is labor, and it demands work from your body. SOmething that I've learned, especially as I've gotten back into writing, is letting myself not write, and being ok with that. And that's been really important from a disability perspective, on letting my body heal but sometimes my strife, my stomach pain is too much to write through or the fatigue is too much to write through, but even then you're watching, setting a seed of the idea and learning that writing is something more holistic. It's not just a part of you tapping the keys. It's going about your day and reading things and taking in what you need.
As far, as what disability and afrofuturism I haven’t even thought of that. That’s so interesting. I’ve been actually thinking about what does afrofuturism mean lately. It's something that I identify with on an instinctual level but it feels actually hard to talk about it. I have actually written a lot about science fiction and disability.
And I think for me, if I was going to define sci fi, it would be starting out with a premise of “what if?”, what if things were a little different that they were. And I think as disabled people we are often the “what if?” Because our lives are often different than what’s the norm for the people who are enabled by society’s structures. So we’re already the edge case.  I think our lives, have a sci fi aspect to them.  So on a literal level, we see that our assistive devices, and various ways cutting edge technologies could help us and there’s that. There’s also the fact that we’re more equipped to answer the question of “what if”, because we’re already sort of living the “what if?” lives.  

So that’s really important to me when writing, and it's something that I’ve been thinking about with this next book I’m working on right now. I think that something that’s cool about afrofuturism that a lot of people don’t really talk about is aesthetic, like how things look, the visual elements of it. And I think there’s so much of where you can go with that in terms of disability sort of finding the beauty within disabled people, in our bodies and our lives, that could draw on that.

B : Could we talk about your disability specifically? I read your New York Time article about your experience with diabetes. I really felt what you had to say about having this out of body experience, that chronic illness can bring you. I really do have similar feelings about being a robot moving through the world, being oppressed by this medical industrial complex and not really knowing how to access what I need to survive.

R : Absolutely. I think a lot of times, why I was actually happy to write that article is because a lot of people don’t think about diabetes unless it’s in the extreme, you know, when you’ve suffered, or lost a limb to amputation, it's sort of that constant policing of your body. It's so exhausting, it’s just wipes you out. It was interesting, a lot of people reached out to me after I wrote that article, and it was really heartening. It was a lot of people with diabetes, people who didn’t have diabetes, but had other illness or disabilities, we talked about this aspect, there was a lot about how you have to manage yourself perfectly, in order to be respected by your doctors.

B : Which is impossible!

R : Yeah! But diabetes has had a really big impact on me. Mostly from a place of disordered eating, fatigue, also lots of pain, and I’m seeing doctors about the chronic limb and joint pain that I’ve been having. But it could very well be related to the diabetes. But lupus runs in my family, so we’re gonna see about that. I really like myself, I’ve come to some levels of peace about it. I feel very empowered in my disability because it’s such an intrinsic part of who I am now, in how I view and interact with the world.

B : Could we talk about blackness and disability? I spend a lot of time thinking about it. What is the phenomenon of more cases of diabetes than ever? I read this article that cases of diabetes are being diagnosed younger and younger.

R : I have so many thoughts on this question.

1. One is that, one the one hand, a lot of it is because diagnostic criteria has changed, similarly with autism and spectrum disorders. So for diabetes, a lot of the numbers have been lowered. The category of prediabetes was created to identify people who had glucose processing issues before they might sort of be at that level to where they have full blown diabetes.
Diabetes is prevalent among black people, I think it's at this point where it’s become a part of the culture. Have you seen Soul Food? It’s very much a film about good food and family, the matriarch has diabetes and ends up passing away. That is an issue that’s very close to Black people. I mean my grandmother was diabetic. My father is diabetic and I have a cousin who is diabetic. She’s Type 1 diabetic. I think Type 1 and 2 can be closer than it often seems like. I do think they can be related. When we think about issues of poverty and food access, that contributes. But also, there is a hereditary aspect to diabetes, but all of these married things contributes to it. And it’s not just diabetes, there’s a few different issues that affect the black community. Like sickle cell, thinking about many young black athletes who die from specific heart conditions.

We have to deal with sickness a lot and we have to deal with it by being underdiagnosed, and mistreated from the medical industry. So yeah, it's a lot.

B : As you’re describing all of the different factors, I just wanna know your thoughts on how this world relates to disability justice, disability rights and access. Could you tell us more about what you could imagine a world where things were slightly different as they currently are? What kind of world would it be if we had equal access, respect and compassion from able-bodied people and understanding.

R : I think that one thing that would make a huge difference in the lives of disabled people, and not just disabled people, able-bodied people as well, is if we change in how we see work, specifically paid work and how we depend on wage labor for our survival. I’m also sort of being queer and being black among people who spend their lives being economically precarious. So what would it look like, I’d say you know and I’m living in the UK right now, which is far from perfect in terms of this stuff.

There is nationalized healthcare here. It makes a difference, and I see how it makes a difference here. For the first time in my life, whenever if I don’t feel well or if I feel there’s is something going on, or if I feel that there is something that is deeply wrong with me, I can go to the doctor and I don't have to worry about copays. It’s just wild to me, and it's like I feel I’m going to the doctor all the time. I've had surgery here that I would not have been able to have in the States because of my insurance back then.

So I can already see some of the ways that these things make a material difference in our lives. It’s not perfect here either. I see that in the future we can have more stronger and resilient communities. A lot of us are isolated from each other for very practical reasons.Because of money reasons, because of not having proper care work where you can get out of the house easily.

One of the ways that England is worse than the US is the inaccessibility of buildings, specifically wheelchair access. It’s bad here. I have a friend who is suing an entire street because when she asked for a very cheap adjustment so that there could be step free access to the shop, most refused and it doesn’t have to be that way. It’s like a conscious choice that people make. So much of the time it’s not so much of a financial burden to make these really small changes to make a building more friendly to people who are navigating different access issues. So that means that community building, the apartment building that i happen to live in, and this is the case with most buildings, it’s so frustrating to me, except for the fancy ones in Cambridge, do not have step free access and it means, the reality is that I can’t have certain friends over. And there’s not even a lot of places where we can go. So I think that we would eventually build tighter, stronger communities and have that support and that would nurture our creative sides, our ability to live fuller lives and I think that’s a real possibility. I think we’re far from it, but yeah.

B : I believe we’re far from it too. I can also imagine a world where the future can be accessible. It really can be. So earlier, you were talking about being queer, I think queer people are magic! And I think queer people, my heart is there. I just wonder if you could explain how disability and queerness intersect.

R : Absolutely, I think for me, just based on my history, I’ve seen myself as a queer person longer than I’ve seen myself as a disabled person. But I think it was actually the first time I was exposed to disabled theory, community stuff and sort of issues, it was in the queer community. It was in New York City, I was 17 or 18. It was queer black people, I mean they were talking about these things. They were things I had never heard  talked about in high school. I really, part of it is that there are already a lot of intersections. There are a lot of queer disabled people, and I don’t know why it can seem like that sometimes. Once you’re marginalized in one way, or sort of in the margins in one way, it’s like “alright, just give it all to me”, it can seem like that. But yeah, I’ve been thinking about my friend network here, do I know anyone who is not queer and disabled? Yeah, It’s not even necessarily that I’ve particularly thought out. When I think about the people who are doing the work, who are trying to build something, to try and change things, I think that’s the  people who are affected by it. But also I think With someone who’s grown up this way, you can develop compassion. And you see all the ways that this world is flawed, and you start thinking ok well what are we gonna do. We gotta do something.

B : Im really inspired by people who do the work, because I don’t think it should be our prerogative to educate able bodied people but people who are doing the work are really inspiring. I was thinking, could you name some of those names?

R : I can’t name off the top of my head. There’s all sort of ways that you can be an activist. I only know by an online identity or by a writing style that has appeared in essays I've read. So I don't even know names to bring to mind. I’m so glad you asked that because I feel like it’s something I need to correct. Because someone who was actually mentioning, they were talking about this phenomenon where someone does something amazing, who is marginalized, often their name is left out of headlines and you just have this kind of like romanticized person in your head or something. You don't know their name, you can’t support them or donate to them and it's so true. Thanks for that reminder.

B : No problem! I’m constantly looking for people to talk with.

B : So what I like to ask people lastly is:  What is your disabled power? What is the thing  that gives you the most agency and makes you feel empowered in yourself as a disabled person?

R : I think for me, it’s something I’ve touched on earlier. Lately, I've been loving myself so much. I think I did spend a lot of time lost in self hatred or thinking I’m never going to be able to do the things I want to do in this bad body. It's just not true, I have to think about things, but I’ve got a unique perspective. I forgive myself for when I make a mistake, I look at myself and say “you’re doing some pretty fucking awesome things” and it feels good. I don't even think that kind of confidence is something that just disabled people struggle with obviously. I think for me, it was a pathway to getting to that strong sense of self-love sooner, because I had to actively do the work and think about it and learn to love my body. Its given me things that I don’t think I would have otherwise.

B : I feel the exact same way, my disability has given me things I never thought I would have like a more nuanced insight into what people’s lives are like. Especially people who are on the margins of society right?

R : Absolutely.

B : So what are you working on? Where can people find you?

R :  You can find me on twitter, at cyborgyndroid. I’m writing my second book. I've got a couple of essays forthcoming. If you really want to keep up with me, I’m on Twitter, that’s the best place to do it. Check out my book, An Unkindness of Ghosts, and if you google my name Rivers Solomon, other pieces are free to read online.
B : Thanks so much for being willing to be vulnerable with me, and to tell your story in a unique way.

B : Anyone who knows me, knows that I am an alien through and through. I’m not from here! And because of that my disability AKA my otherness makes me stronger and more empowered than I ever have been. I can adjust, react, and move through the systems that affect me everyday. There is struggle, there is pain, but there is beauty too. I find these stories are special, and I hope you find them special too.

Wanna find out about the latest episodes of Power Not Pity? Check out my website at powernotpity.com! I’ve been retweeting angry tweets from disability activists for a hot minute. You can find me on twitter under the handle powernotpity. I’m also on Facebook under the same handle too. Send me some love at powernotpity@gmail.com.

B : (chants) POWER POWER POWER NOT PITY PITY PITY!

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